tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post7303620929784421335..comments2024-03-14T10:31:26.918+00:00Comments on DCblog: On a burning poetic questionDChttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10192779827863835310noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post-16794046575719593702013-09-10T16:40:08.528+00:002013-09-10T16:40:08.528+00:00John Cowan
The article seeks to balance
• on th...John Cowan<br /><br />The article seeks to balance <br /><br />• on the one hand the absence of evidence in some collectors not recording a performance <br />and <br />• on the other hand the assertion of Stan Hugil who was an actual shanty man, one of the last, and had a considerable reputation to loseDavid Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post-40872377361555352052013-09-10T14:57:13.655+00:002013-09-10T14:57:13.655+00:00Ah, I didn't read far enough in the article. ...Ah, I didn't read far enough in the article. Apparently the pronunciation did not appear in field recordings made in the 1920's in Britain and in 1939 in America, but did appear in a 1956 commercial recording by Burl Ives. So it's only about a half a century old. Yet another case of the invention of tradition, or "all culture is fake culture".John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post-65585317018962928862013-09-10T14:51:14.379+00:002013-09-10T14:51:14.379+00:00The first evidence of "Drunken Sailor" c...The first evidence of "Drunken Sailor" comes, says Wikipedia, from an account of an 1839 American whaling voyage out of New London, Connecticut, the second-busiest whaling port in the world in its day. There is also a report of it being used inland a few decades earlier for chain-hauling tasks. The second syllable of the key word <i>earlye</i> definitely doesn't bear either word stress or musical ictus in this tune, so it's hard to account for it, but the pronunciation is definitely part of the song.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post-25360283720436969982013-09-10T09:56:22.272+00:002013-09-10T09:56:22.272+00:00I've recovered memory of tʃɪmnaɪ (chimney swee...I've recovered memory of <b>tʃɪmnaɪ</b> (<i>chimney</i> sweep) and <b>gʊdlaɪ</b> (<i>goodly</i> work) from the same singers. Also that <b>ɜːlaɪ</b> (<i>early</i>) that Lipman remembers. I sampled a few performances of the latter on YouTube, and I think it's safe to say that many — quite probably most — singers use that pronunciation. I know I do.<br /><br />Also on YouTube, I found that somebody has uploaded <i>Babes in the Wood</i> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbYdpHOYHkE" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />All these pronunciations seem to be motivated by the musical rhythm. The <i>-ly</i> syllable has equal musical stress, and the words are sung asif they were two words each with full word strew.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post-30630171409178101332013-09-10T08:27:25.376+00:002013-09-10T08:27:25.376+00:00John: yes, true, but the problem with that -ye spe...John: yes, true, but the problem with that <i>-ye</i> spelling is that it isn't uniquely related to a diphthongal pronunciation, also turning up in words that are unequivocally /i:/ - for instance, an early spelling of <i>free</i> was <i>frye</i>.<br /><br />Lipman: Nice recall. I've only ever heard it sung with that pronunciation, I must say.DChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10192779827863835310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post-91041816000208393392013-09-10T08:26:10.040+00:002013-09-10T08:26:10.040+00:00My wireless keyboard asks me to post an apology fo...My wireless keyboard asks me to post an apology for eating parts of <i>I've heard recordings</i>.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post-23004336801561121622013-09-10T06:57:03.760+00:002013-09-10T06:57:03.760+00:00David Crosbie,
I've recording of the Drunken ...David Crosbie,<br /><br />I've recording of the Drunken Sailor with "earlai", but that might be artificial.Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post-8837303780444315652013-09-09T22:44:24.879+00:002013-09-09T22:44:24.879+00:00The archaic spelling symmetrye actually is recorde...The archaic spelling <i>symmetrye</i> actually is recorded, but not since 1600 (per the OED1), so too early even for Blake.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post-15232183567139343502013-09-09T20:19:31.995+00:002013-09-09T20:19:31.995+00:00Lipman: Yes, maybe the diphthong had reached its ...Lipman: Yes, maybe the diphthong had reached its modern quality by then. I deliberately kept my comment vague ('into the 18th century'), as I've no idea when that central opening element opened to be like the modern sound. And, re 'lord', I was just referring to that item, for the purposes of this post. I've not made a systematic check of all the relevant words in these vowel-sets at that time.<br /><br />David: Nice example. I'm sure songs will bring to light more examples like this.DChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10192779827863835310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post-50463562682627824112013-09-09T20:06:22.157+00:002013-09-09T20:06:22.157+00:00I guess I should get my band's singer, Dany, t...I guess I should get my band's singer, Dany, to sing "symettreye" instead of "symmetry" in this song, "Rumpus," which is where Blake meets Maurice Sendak: http://youtu.be/1JvTv6VsXmYAndrew Shieldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02804655739574694901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post-79927019919893014842013-09-09T20:02:38.327+00:002013-09-09T20:02:38.327+00:00Generations of the Copper family of Rottingdene ha...Generations of the Copper family of Rottingdene have been recorded by folksong collectors with pens and paper and with recording equipment. And many of their songs were sung for generations before that.<br /><br />One old pronunciation that has survived is in <br /><br /><i>Now the robins so red, how swiftly they sped, <br />They opened their wide wings , and over them spread<br />And all the day long, in the branches they'd throng<br />They sweetly did whistle and this was their song<br /><br />Pretty babes in the wood, pretty babes in the wood<br />O don't you remember those in the wood?</i><br /><br />The most recorded Coppers were two cousins, born early last century. Ron the bass sings the word <i>sweetly</i> in more or less his speaking accent. But tenor (sort-of) Bob sings <b>ˈswiːt ˈlaɪ</b>. (<i>Swiftly</i> is pronounced normally.)<br /><br />I have a feeling there are other song examples tucked somewhere away in my memory.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8377709913595182916.post-69612158404335237262013-09-09T19:45:33.571+00:002013-09-09T19:45:33.571+00:00By the time Blake was writing, the everyday pronun...<i>By the time Blake was writing, the everyday pronunciation had shifted to its modern form, like a short 'ee'. […] The pronunciation with the final diphthong would have sounded distinctly old-fashioned by then.</i><br /><br />I also consider it very probable that <i>eye</i> and <i>symmetry</i> rhyme here, but why not both with a contemporary [ai]? I don't quite see the connection between <i>symmetry</i> having the PRICE vowel and the phonetic quality of the latter.<br /><br />Concerning the vowel of <i>lord</i> being (considerably) less open today than a hundred years ago, do you mean the PALM and the THOUGHT vowels were identical, or are you only referring to the one word <i>lord</i> (cf m'ludd etc.)?Phillip Mindenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801818752833289089noreply@blogger.com